@Makeesha – You seem to have cut a lot closer to the heart of the issue of modesty than much of what I have read on the subject. Thank you for being so frank and honest! You certainly have challenged some of my beliefs and I am re-evaluating them after reading your posts. I believe that you are right in that the church has said, in so many words, that women are the root of sin in the context of sexuality. I have been wrestling and grappling with tthis subject for quite some time. I did an experiment where I looked at a lot of artistic nude pictures at an art website. I found that seeing abreast full on became less exciting, but when teased with a glimpse, the excitement went way up. I found that I could be aroused and not think selfish and lustful thoughts towards the women in the pictures. However, If I wanted to, I could think selfishly, and was even tempted to think that way (James 1:14). Something you said sparked a thought in my mind: have we condemned arousal in men as something sinful? Arousal in normal and natural, therefore it isn’t sinful because God said “it is good” when He had finished creating the earth and all that was in it, including sexual arousal. I wonder if a chunk of the problem is painting sexual arousal in men as sinful… Hmmm, if I look at a woman to cause sexual arousal because I enjoy it, is that selfish (i.e. sinful)? If I look at a woman not to be sexually aroused per se, but to admire the variety and beauty of God’s creation even if there is some sexual arousal that results because of how God designed the brain to react to certain stimuli, is that acceptable behavior for a Christian?

My brother and I talked about sin, love, and modesty over Memorial weekend. We have a tendancy to talk about deep theological stuff! I recounted seeing a woman wearing cargoish type pants that were thin and very snug around her derriere. I was bothered (I think I was bothered more by my response to seeing rather than what she was wearing) by it until I talked with my brother about it. He asked if it is ok to look; biblically, I couldn’t object. He asked if it was ok to enjoy; again, I could not think of a biblical reason that would condemn such behavior. His third and final question was did I want her selfishly? I answered that selfishness entered the picture after glancing several times. In rural Belize, women run around topless and it doesn’t seem to bother the guys at all. They grew up seeing a woman’s breasts, and breasts are not eroticized in Belize as they are in American culture. I have a friend who ogles a lot! He shows no shame in doing so. I have observed his behavior and it strikes me as viewing women as objects. I might be wrong but that is what I have perceived. Makeesha mentioned that she didn’t care if some guy was checking her out, or something like that. That brought back what my brother and I had discussed about enjoying a woman’s body as God’s creation (ok) and not wanting her body for selfish gain (not ok). Breasts aren’t tempting unless we make them tempting by desiring them. Personally, I prefer to think that breasts are primarily for feeding little ones and sexual pleasure as Makeesha pointed out. They may be tempting because I am being tempted and drawn away by my own lusts (selfish desires) and enticed (James 1:14), not because breasts are temptations. I can’t help but wonder if God isn’t rolling His eyes and thinking: “I made the human body and the brain and here you are making them out to be evil, scandalous and sinful?! I created the body for your enjoyment in a covenental, marriage relationship but you shake your head and argue that the body is sinful and wicked and must be controlled. Thanks for appreciating what I did FOR you.”

To clarify, love is selfless (1 Cor. 13 and other passages) and sin is selfish (among other things such as corruption – Paul). Love is the perfect fulfillment of the law (The greatest commandment and the second which is like it). Therefore, sin is fairly easy to define. If I want for myself without thought or regard to the benefit and well-being of the other person, then I sin. On the other hand, if I think and behave in a manner that shows regard and concern for the well-being, needs, and welfare of others, then I am not sinning.

Applying the above to modesty. If a woman is dressing a certain way to attract attention to meet a need out of selfishness, then she clearly is in the wrong and should wear something else. It boils down to what her motivation is for wearing certain clothing. Now, in the same token, we guys need to recognize when we are looking at a woman selfishly and do something about it. I struggle with looking with selfish intent at women who are “provacatively” dressed. It isn’t necessarily (read first part of paragraph – this is towards Christian women) that the woman is sinning in wearing it, but I am sinning for sure in the specific way I am looking at her. Does this make sense? That is something that I have to deal with just as the Christian woman has to deal with wearing certain clothing for selfish (sinful) reasons. Neither should receive greater blame for his or her actions because one or both are guilty of sinning, this levels the playing field. Just as Adam blamed Eve, so we guys blame women. Don’t forget that Eve blamed the serpent, modeling Adam’s behavior of blaming another; women also need to ask themselves if they are passing the buck and blaming something or someone else just as Adam did.

I’m convinced that I could visit a Naturist (Nudist) beach and after I have demolished the initial mental blockades that would rise up (some lingering puritanical beliefs, what I have been taught regarding sexuality by my parents and the beliefs they held, etc.) I believe I could be just fine seeing a sea of nude bodies adn not be overwhelmed with temptations. I say this in light of using myself as a guinea pig and trying to understand what affects my viewing the artistic nude section of an art website would cause. It was a fascinating experiment, and I learned some things about myself as a male and it gave me food for thought regarding religion, the Bible, and sexuality.

Sex is very important to us guys, hence we think about it more often than most women. It seems to tie in with the aggressive nature that God fashioned us with. So, it stands to reason why we guys struggle more with sexuality than the average woman. Most women don’t look at a guys body and become aroused by it. Since you gals don’t have the same experience when you look at a guys body, don’t start pointing your finger and saying that we can do better since you have no idea exactly how we are affected by your body! I’m not making excuses either, but asking that you be sensitive to differences that you don’t have experiential knowledge of and how we are affected by you body differntly than you are affected by our male bodies. You may have some idea, but you don’t know with intimate detail. I read that a woman’s mind is like a modern computer running the Windows OS. A woman can have several windows open and she can easily switch between them and manage them. We guys, on the other hand, are more like an old computer running MS-DOS. We can run one program at a time and we have to shutdown the previous program before we can start another program. I may know that a woman’s mind operates like a Windows equipped PC, but I don’t have experiential and intimate knowledge of how that works exactly and what it is like. I know, but I don’t know the intimate details. Make sense? I usually try to keep differences such as this in mind when engaging subjects such as this.

I read an article once at Christianitytoday.com; it was entitled ‘In Defense of My Pink Slingbacks.’ (http://www.christianitytoday.com/singles/newsletter/mind51116.html)

“My friend Max calls them incidents that put a little extra sway in your hips. And, mercifully, I’ve had a couple of them recently. A man at the laundromat I frequent asked for my number. A guy at a movie theater complemented my walk (I didn’t even know I had a walk.) I love the way these interactions affirm my femininity, put a bit of a sly smile on my lips, make me feel soft and girlie…I have a feeling it has less to do with fashion and more to do with my secret singleness fear—my phobia of one day becoming one of those genderless, older never-married women who sports sansabelt pants and sensible shoes.”

This article got me thinking; what did God have in mind when He created a woman’s body as He did? Why did He design a guys brain to be affected to the magnitude that it is when we see a woman’s body? And of all things He said it was good!! I believe that the church has erred greatly and is more like the Pharisee’s attempting to obey a bunch of laws to keep them from sinning and missing the proper reasons/motivation (i.e. love/selflessness) for obedience altogether! God forgives, He even died on a cross on our behalf to deal with the problem of sin. Why then do we try so hard to avoid sinning by use of rules and laws and not because we love each other and limiting our liberty in Christ with love around those who don’t feel quite the same way that we do regarding certain things? God didn’t die for our sins so that we could run around trying not to sin, but rather that we could have an intimate relationship with Him! He will deal with sin (sanctification) throughout our lifetime, but the relationship comes first! In Anna Broadway’s defense, she stated in one of her blogs that the relationship is first and foremost in marriage and that sex is secondary and serves to strengthen and reinforce the relationship. Relationship, relationship, relationship.

::jumps off of soapbox::

Wess, you have to read Amy Laura Hall’s “Conceiving Parenthood: American Protestantism and the Spirit of Reproduction” which deals with how the corporate-inspired family ideals that have come to pervade the American Christian mainstream. I think there should be something in there that would relate to this discussion, which is to say that we need to think through how our children have become products.