Comments on: The Questions Pacifists Always Get Asked http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/ Current Blog Project: Six Months With a Quaker Preacher Tue, 16 Mar 2010 23:08:14 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: C. Wess Daniels http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/comment-page-1/#comment-20769 C. Wess Daniels Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:59:02 +0000 http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/#comment-20769 Patrick, You bring up a great point, and one that is worthy of deep for anyone who subscribes to this position. When we seek to live out the peace of Christ in every area, there is no room for "hatred and anger and chaos." You are right that many pacifists are guilty of this, and where this is true we are wrong, and guilty of sinning against the good news of Christ. Hopefully, no matter what position we hold to we remember that humility is our most important virtue and out of humility comes love for the other. These questions often get tangled up in personal matters, and it can be hard to remain calm (or friendly) when our personal investments and ideas get in the way, in these moments let us all be gracious and loving. Patrick,
You bring up a great point, and one that is worthy of deep for anyone who subscribes to this position. When we seek to live out the peace of Christ in every area, there is no room for “hatred and anger and chaos.” You are right that many pacifists are guilty of this, and where this is true we are wrong, and guilty of sinning against the good news of Christ.

Hopefully, no matter what position we hold to we remember that humility is our most important virtue and out of humility comes love for the other. These questions often get tangled up in personal matters, and it can be hard to remain calm (or friendly) when our personal investments and ideas get in the way, in these moments let us all be gracious and loving.

]]> By: Patrick http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/comment-page-1/#comment-20751 Patrick Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:32:42 +0000 http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/#comment-20751 Very interesting article. Interesting to me personally because I am just about in every way a Quaker in my beliefs, except on the topic of pacifism. But, it's not like I'm militantly anti-pacifist. I'm really wrestling with it, and my own views which love so much of pacifism but can't quite settle into it yet. I think your response, Wess, about there being something between is spot on. At the same time, in my experiences, pacifists are often the least personally peaceful people I've come across. So much of anti-war polemics are filled with hatred and anger and chaos. In a way the broader anti-war movement is for corporate peace rather than personal peace. Which is opposite than much of the 'pro-war' Christian right. Not that you're in this category, as I see a seeking for both aspects in your journey. Anyway, I thank you for this because it's a good tool as I wrestle through the issue. Very interesting article. Interesting to me personally because I am just about in every way a Quaker in my beliefs, except on the topic of pacifism. But, it’s not like I’m militantly anti-pacifist. I’m really wrestling with it, and my own views which love so much of pacifism but can’t quite settle into it yet. I think your response, Wess, about there being something between is spot on.

At the same time, in my experiences, pacifists are often the least personally peaceful people I’ve come across. So much of anti-war polemics are filled with hatred and anger and chaos. In a way the broader anti-war movement is for corporate peace rather than personal peace. Which is opposite than much of the ‘pro-war’ Christian right.

Not that you’re in this category, as I see a seeking for both aspects in your journey.

Anyway, I thank you for this because it’s a good tool as I wrestle through the issue.

]]> By: Kevin http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/comment-page-1/#comment-20744 Kevin Mon, 26 Feb 2007 18:17:26 +0000 http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/#comment-20744 "It shows how ridiculous this all becomes very quickly, especially when we’re arguing with people who don’t want to hear something other than their own point of view." -This goes both ways..... “It shows how ridiculous this all becomes very quickly, especially when we’re arguing with people who don’t want to hear something other than their own point of view.”

-This goes both ways…..

]]> By: C. Wess Daniels http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/comment-page-1/#comment-20678 C. Wess Daniels Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:49:32 +0000 http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/#comment-20678 @chase - thanks for the comment, a little peace training for soldiers sounds like a fantastic idea. Maybe we could sign them up for Christian Peacemaker Teams, I hear they are experts at that. @Richard - Great Joan quote, I've read that before in one of John Howard Yoder's books. It shows how ridiculous this all becomes very quickly, especially when we're arguing with people who don't want to hear something other than their own point of view. And you are right there are no easy answers about any of these huge issues. But at the same time there you can be a pacifist without being able to solve the world's problems the two don't cancel each other out. @chase – thanks for the comment, a little peace training for soldiers sounds like a fantastic idea. Maybe we could sign them up for Christian Peacemaker Teams, I hear they are experts at that.

@Richard – Great Joan quote, I’ve read that before in one of John Howard Yoder’s books. It shows how ridiculous this all becomes very quickly, especially when we’re arguing with people who don’t want to hear something other than their own point of view.

And you are right there are no easy answers about any of these huge issues. But at the same time there you can be a pacifist without being able to solve the world’s problems the two don’t cancel each other out.

]]> By: Richard http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/comment-page-1/#comment-20641 Richard Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:57:16 +0000 http://gatheringinlight.com/2007/02/23/the-questions-pacifists-always-get-asked/#comment-20641 People who don't believe in nonviolence always ask someone who is a pacifist those "what if" questions. Usually they will come up with some outlandish scenario in which your loved one is about to be killed and your ONLY way to stop the killer is to shoot him dead. If you agree that you would shoot the aggressor then the person you are debating feels victorious saying, "Aha, so you are not really a pacifist!" I keep thinking about an article I read about folk singer/pacifist Joan Baez and her response to a man who challenged her pacifism. Man: "So what would you do if a man was about to stab your mother and you had a gun? Would you use it?" Joan: "Why would I have a gun?" Man: "It's a hypothetical question. Would you shoot him to save your mother?" Joan: Am I an expert shot in this hypothetical scenario?" Man: "Yes" Joan: "Then I would shoot he knife out of his hand." Man: "Ok, ok but say you are NOT an expert shot? Would you kill him?" Joan: "But I might miss and kill my own mother!" Man: "Say you are close enough not to shoot your own mother by accident. Would you kill him?" Joan: "No I would just get between my mother and the killer." Man: "But what if there is no time to get between your mom and the killer." This conversation went back and forth until the man just gave up in frustration because Joan would not say she would kill. Personally I do not know what I would do in such a scenario. I would just rely on God to help me get through it and do the right thing. As for things like Hitler killing the Jews and the crisis in Darfur there are no easy answers. Of course it would be best to stop such violence before it starts but if you wait too long then what do you do once the genocide starts? As I said I have no easy answers for that. People who don’t believe in nonviolence always ask someone who is a pacifist those “what if” questions. Usually they will come up with some outlandish scenario in which your loved one is about to be killed and your ONLY way to stop the killer is to shoot him dead. If you agree that you would shoot the aggressor then the person you are debating feels victorious saying,
“Aha, so you are not really a pacifist!”
I keep thinking about an article I read about folk singer/pacifist Joan Baez and her response to a man who challenged her pacifism.

Man: “So what would you do if a man was about to stab your mother and you had a gun? Would you use it?”

Joan: “Why would I have a gun?”

Man: “It’s a hypothetical question. Would you shoot him to save your mother?”

Joan: Am I an expert shot in this hypothetical scenario?”

Man: “Yes”

Joan: “Then I would shoot he knife out of his hand.”

Man: “Ok, ok but say you are NOT an expert shot? Would you kill him?”

Joan: “But I might miss and kill my own mother!”

Man: “Say you are close enough not to shoot your own mother by accident. Would you kill him?”

Joan: “No I would just get between my mother and the killer.”

Man: “But what if there is no time to get between your mom and the killer.”

This conversation went back and forth until the man just gave up in frustration because Joan would not say she would kill.
Personally I do not know what I would do in such a scenario. I would just rely on God to help me get through it and do the right thing.
As for things like Hitler killing the Jews and the crisis in Darfur there are no easy answers. Of course it would be best to stop such violence before it starts but if you wait too long then what do you do once the genocide starts? As I said I have no easy answers for that.

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